Transcript: 47-Year-Old Law Is Stalling the Future of Farming in California

Executive Summary

A 47-year-old Cal/OSHA regulation requiring a human operator on all self-propelled farm equipment has long been a barrier to agricultural autonomy in California. However, a recent Cal/OSHA memo provides a crucial clarification: autonomous tractors can operate legally, provided no workers are present in the “zone of danger”. Agtonomy CEO & Co-founder, Tim Bucher discusses this development, the history of the law, and his company’s role on the Cal/OSHA advisory committee, which is working to modernize these rules for a new era of farming.

Key Topics & Timestamps

[00:00] The Agtonomy-Kubota Partnership 

Tim Bucher explains that his company, Agtonomy, has partnered with Kubota to bring automation to their agricultural vehicles. The deal came after Kubota observed Agtonomy’s technology over several years. Tim clarifies that Agtonomy’s mission is not to build tractors, but to partner with established OEMs to accelerate their adoption of new technology. The autonomous tractors will be sold and serviced through Kubota’s existing and trusted dealer network.

[06:00] California’s Ban on Autonomous Tractors 

The conversation addresses the fact that it is currently illegal to operate an autonomous tractor on private land in California. This is due to regulations from CAL/OSHA. This raises the question of where these new autonomous tractors can be deployed, as California is one of the country’s largest agricultural states.

[07:00] The “Zone of Danger” Clarification 

Tim Bucher explains that while the law technically prohibits unmanned operation, a recent Cal/OSHA memo clarifies the rule. The memo states that since Cal/OSHA’s primary goal is worker safety, autonomous operation is allowed as long as no workers are in the “zone of danger” where the equipment is being used. Agtonomy’s customers operate on thousands of acres, allowing them to keep workers completely separate from the autonomous vehicles, thereby complying with the memo’s interpretation.

[11:00] The History of the 1977 Farming Law

The motivation for the 47-year-old law dates back to the 1960s and 70s. Tim, having witnessed it as a child, describes how farmers would put a manual transmission tractor in gear, set the throttle, and jump off to load a trailer while the tractor moved on its own. This dangerous practice allowed one person to do the work of two.

[12:00] The Difference Between “Driverless” and “Autonomous” 

Regulators created the law to stop “driverless” tractors from operating without a human on board. Tim emphasizes that an old, uncontrolled “driverless” tractor is fundamentally different from a modern “autonomous” one. An autonomous vehicle is controlled by a computer “brain,” just as a human operator uses their brain to control the vehicle.

[18:00] Working with Regulators on an Advisory Committee 

In August of the previous year, Cal/OSHA created an advisory committee to help update the regulations for autonomous agricultural vehicles. The committee includes representatives from labor, technology companies, and OEMs. Tim was invited to join and now serves on the committee, attending all board meetings to help educate and support the regulators.

[26:00] Modeling Regulations After the California DMV 

Tim notes that Cal/OSHA is taking a proactive approach by inviting the California DMV to its meetings to learn from their experience regulating autonomous passenger cars. The DMV successfully navigated the challenge of needing safety data by issuing restricted permits to companies like Waymo, allowing them to operate and gather information. Cal/OSHA is now following a similar model for agriculture.

[32:00] Labor Shortages and Economic Pressure 

The urgent need for automation is driven by severe labor shortages that could lead to food shortages. One challenge to updating the regulations has come from special interests, like construction unions, who fear automation in one industry will spread to theirs. However, the economics are different; an expert tractor driver earns around $20-25 per hour, while a union excavator operator can make $50 per hour.

Watch the Full Episode of Autonomy Markets

Full Episode Transcript

Grayson Brulte: Tim, it’s been seven months since you’ve been on the road to autonomy. We’re super excited to have you back, you and the team at Autonomy. You’re doing one thing, you’re growing, which is really great, and you recently cut a deal Kubota to do an autonomous tractor. How did that deal come about? 

Tim Bucher: Well, first of all, Grayson, it’s great to be back on with you. I enjoyed my last visit. And yeah, big news since last time is that, uh, Kubota announced a partnership with autonomy for bringing automation to their, , ag vehicles. And, the way it came about. Uh, it is actually a long process. You know, we’ve been only around for about four years now, and I think Kubota and others, you know, have been watching us at trade shows and whatnot, continuing to advance our capabilities. And so over the last couple of years, you know, they were putting us to the test and making sure that, you know, our technology really worked. And they became very convinced and said, Hey, we’d like to partner with you and we’d like to use your. Automation technology, um, you know, the physical AI that we bring to vehicles and we said, yeah, that’d be great. ’cause you know, our mission, as you may recall from seven months ago, is not to build tractors, not to build robots, not to build implements. It’s to partner with those companies who do such an incredible job of building this, designing and building this amazing equipment. Having the distribution network, which is so important for growers, right? I mean it’s, I mean, our car dealers are important, but you know, we don’t necessarily, um, have them over for Thanksgiving dinner. Uh, but tractor dealers are super important, you know, and you develop great friendships so that you can call ’em at two in the morning to open the store to get parts and whatnot. So, you know, given that, that’s our, been our vision since day one, is to accelerate the digital transformation of these OEMs. Partnering with Kubota just made a lot of sense and, uh, we’re thrilled to work with their engineers and, um, things are moving, moving, moving right along.

Grayson Brulte: Will that dealer network, will that also handle the service of that tracker since it. Will be autonomous. Will they handle that and have the ba, the spare parts on hand? 

Tim Bucher: Exactly. Think of it this way, it’s just like a normal tractor, right? It’s just like if you buy a GM car with Super Cruise, you buy it from the same dealers that you bought a car without Super Cruise, right? Uh, that’s GM’s kind of, you know, version of autopilot, if you will. And so, you know, the paradigm is not changing here. It’s just the product evolution is, and if you look back through the decades, you know, these incredible OEM manufacturers have brought new models to market some with new technologies, some with new comfort things for humans, and, and that has always gone through the dealer network and it takes a while, right? These companies have literally, you know, 10,000 dealers globally. You gotta get the parts and, uh, you know, the service and the training, you know, done. And, uh, and it’s gotta be good, right? You can’t cut any corners here when you’re servicing growers where this equipment is for their livelihood. So, yeah, it’s gonna be done. The normal channel, and that channel is really important.

Grayson Brulte: Well, that’s what you’ve kind of alluded to, and you talked about it when you were back on seven months ago, is that there’s the trust there. With that network that you have, that personal re relationship there, since the, the trust is there, do you find it’ll be easier to implement and for the, the autonomy tractors to sell more briskly just because of that trust and those relationships that you have with that network of dealers? 

Tim Bucher: It’s not autonomy that’s gonna have the direct. Relationship with the dealers, the OEMs have the incredible relationship with their dealers, right? They’re such an important part of their overall business. And so for, for us, it’s a matter of making sure the OEM has everything they need from the Agtonomy pieces, and then we help them trade their dealers if they want us to. But they’re also incredible at training. They’re doing, this is what they’ve been doing for decades or centuries even. Century. , And so, uh, you know, we have direct relationships with some dealers, but, uh, for the most part, everything goes through the OEM and that’s the relationship we maintain, right? So just think of it this way from a grower, right? A grower trusts their dealer. They have their trusted brands. That’s not gonna change, right? It’s not an Agtonomy tractor or some unknown brand. It’s, you know, a Kubota tractor or it’s a Bobcat tractor. That’s autonomy enabled, right? So it’s, it’s part of the technology inside that we help bring accelerate for those OEMs to ultimately serve the growers who are struggling these days. As you know, from labor issues and all kinds of other things, 

Grayson Brulte: We’re gonna get into that in a little bit there. It’s the Kubota, it’s the OEM. There’s trust there. And you’re starting with the M five N tractor. Why? Why start with that tractor? Was it a technical, was it just a, a usage? Why start with that tractor? 

Tim Bucher: Great question, and if you recall from our first conversation seven months ago. Agtonomy is not focused on all agriculture, right? We don’t do the row crops, the wheats, the corns. It’s actually, you know, a relatively easier environment to work in. We focused on the hardest environments, which you, where you have to have precision because if you hit any of these plants, it’s thousands of dollars, right? If you take out a citrus tree or a vine or something like that. And so when you think about, uh, those permanent crops, or as some OEMs like to call it high value crops, on the Kubota side, their most popular line for those kind of crops is the M five series, which includes, you know, the M five N, which is the narrow version of that class. So it is Kubota who chose that first. We’re not the ones who went to Kubota and said, Hey, we wanna automate your M five. They said, Hey, we’d like to partner with you on automation technology ’cause you guys are great at software development and, and, you know, uh, autonomy stacks and whatnot. Um, could you automate, you know, the M five? And we worked together with them and, and uh, and basically brought the technology to life that way. And it’s out in pilots now, and it will be available, uh, soon, very soon.

Grayson Brulte: you work hand in hand. And we’re seeing that on the car and truck side with the OEM. Develop a really great product that’s gonna create a lot of value for the end customer. You’re in pilot stages now. It’s in, in the near future, you’ll get to commercialization, but the big question is, it’s illegal to operate an autonomous tractor on private land in California. That’s right folks. It is illegal to do that ’cause of CAL/OSHA regulations. Where do you see these tractors being deployed? Knowing that one of the largest agriculture states in the country is not a market that you can or your partner can sell into.

Tim Bucher: There’s three states in the United States that contribute the majority of all permanent crop or high value crop, uh, produce and uh, and, uh, nuts and whatnot too. And that’s, uh, the state of Washington, state of Oregon, state of California. So, uh, I guess, I guess it was about, at the time I spoke to you last, we had opened up a, a pretty big operation in Washington. So we’re operating in Washington, uh, with current vehicles that are available from Bobcat. And we will continue to grow there as well as Oregon. We have commercial vehicles operating in Oregon now in California. , It’s a bit of a myth that it’s illegal to operate, that you are technically right. Okay. And Title eight says it explicitly that an operator has to be in full control of the vehicle, uh, in ag vehicles. However, uh, and it’s public information now, as of this year, there was a, a memo that Kalosha, uh, wrote and, and it basically analyzed the situation where. If you think about Cal osha, their number one goal is worker health and safety, right? That’s what they’re all about. Well, if there is no workers in the vicinity of the zone of danger, IE, where the work is being done, you’re allowed to operate. So guess what? We don’t have any people. Our customers don’t have any people in the zone of danger. There’s nobody out there. These are thousands of acres and you know, there’s, uh, it’s, it’s pretty, it’s pretty isolated. There’s not even cellular reception on these ranches, right? Because we work with, uh, enterprise growers, we don’t work with the individual growers yet, while we are, you know, working to ramp up these OEMs and, and bring, bring them new technology that they can, um, ultimately serve their customers with. So that’s the first thing I’ll tell you is that. If you don’t have people around you, you can operate. Now, there are some robots in agriculture that are what I call collaborative, meaning they collaborate with humans. Those are technically illegal. Because you have these robots that work with humans, and you’re in the zone of danger, right? If that thing takes a sharp left turn or you know, thinks that there’s an obstacle and, and, and you’re two inches away from it. I mean, you can break a leg and, and, and get hurt. Um, so, but we don’t, we don’t do those kind of robots that are collaborative with, with humans. We actually, our goal is to get. The worker onto a smartphone and in their air conditioned truck to do sprays and, you know, flail, mowing, and all kinds of other tasks, which we’ll talk a little bit about later. Um, and, and that makes it so much safer for the employee. Right? And by the way, Grayson in, in Brazil, uh, I learned this recently, that they have this regulation where you can’t vibrate a human. Beyond a certain level. And so if you’re in a tractor, you’re actually violating their regulations and it makes sense, right? Because, you know, I’ve spent 15 hours in, in the seat of a, a tractor, and believe me, when you get off, you’re, you’re tussled up and you’re, you’re, you’re sore the next day too, right? It depends on what you’re doing, but you know, I think, you know what I’m saying? So, um, yeah, but that’s, that’s where things stand. And we can talk more about that as you ask more questions on the regulations in California.

Grayson Brulte: But it just seems, see the vibration in Brazil, you have the. This, this, uh, the Title eight in California and, and this, this, this, this just tells you the regulation. So it is Cal osha, agriculture Safety Orders, title eight, group three, sub chapter three, section 3, 4 4 1 B. And that language states eight. All self-propelled equipment shall at all times be under the control of an operator. Okay. So yes, I could see for political reasons that was put in say 2000, 2003, 2005. No, you know this 1977 that was codified into law 47 years ago, and you know this very well, 27 years before the DARPA Grand Challenge even really kind of ushered in this whole autonomy thing. What do you think, I mean, I we’re gonna go back 47 years, but what do you think was the motivation behind that? 

Tim Bucher: You know, I’m so glad you’re bringing this up, Grayson, because when I was a child, I witnessed the motivation firsthand. So back in, I wasn’t alive in the forties and the fifties and you know, most of the sixties and whatnot. But in, in those days, there were no rollover protection systems, no roll bars, you know, to protect, uh, uh, you know, an operator for, uh, from rollovers, which by the way, is the majority of all deaths in agriculture are caused by vehicle rollover. Okay. Um, and there’s studies by the University of Wisconsin that have looked at all the data, and so that’s, that’s really dangerous. So getting the person out of the vehicle is really good. Right. But that regulation from the seventies, you know, started in the sixties when everybody realized. Oh my gosh. You know what farmers are doing back then is you had manual transmissions. You’d put the tractor in gear, you’d have a trailer on the back of the tractor. You basically then pop the clutch, put it in first gear, set the throttle, and jump off the tractor and then load the melons on the trailer, or pick the potatoes onto the trailer or feed the cows hay off the trailer, or you know, whatever cultivating equipment you had, you would then, you know, collect things around it. So you would be able to do. The work of two by jumping off the tractor. Right? And this is in the days when there was no rocks, there were no, you know, um, hydrostatic transmissions. There were no seat switches or anything like that. And so that’s what my father did. He would basically put the tractor in gear. I grew up on a farm, as I think I mentioned to you last time. And it, you know, it was just the normal thing we would do Now. My family got lucky and we never had an accident jumping off and jumping on the tractor. So you could do more work by having everybody off the tractor. And if it’s flat land and you’re going straight, you know, it’s, it’s not, it’s a big deal. But that’s what farmers did is they, they took that chance. So finally, you know, the regulators got together and said, Hey, look, we can’t have these tractors operating without a human on the, on the vehicle. And that’s the genesis of the original regulations, which actually made sense, like the regulators were smart. What’s happened though since then is that has evolved to saying, well, it’s just like an autonomous tractor. It’s not, there’s a driverless tractor, which is what that regulation regulation is all about, and then there’s an autonomous tractor. Okay? If you put a human in the tractor, you now have a brain controlling it. If you put a computer in the tractor, you now have a brain controlling it. So driverless is not autonomous. Driverless is just, it’s on its own and it can hit a rock and turn to the left and you know you’re about to jump on And voila. Right now I had a really, really close friend, pass away on a tractor that rolled over when I was 16 years old. So, you know, it was my neighbor who I was friends with. You know, that’s, that’s a, that’s a huge issue. This, you know, this danger of being on a, on a vehicle. So in, in a way, what we’re doing is actually making it much safer for the operators. Uh, and unfortunately, you know, I live in an area called Sonoma County in northern, uh, California, and once a year at least somebody dies in an agricultural related accident. so. The companies that are working on autonomy and automation are actually helping make things safer for the workers and upskilling them too. But, um, yeah, but let’s, let’s dig in more on this ’cause you have a, a great perspective on this and I’m glad you Yeah. 27 years ago, darpa, that’s, that’s pretty cool. I didn’t think about that.

Grayson Brulte: Was the, if you wanna call the original driverless term that you coined. I, I like that, by the way. So what are we talking two miles an hour, three miles an hour maximum when it would go like 

Tim Bucher: yeah, about two, yeah, about two miles an hour, which now you start to see some legacy of, you know, two miles an hour in regulations too. And, you know, two miles an hour is, is a pretty safe speed. But nonetheless, you can get caught under a wheel, right? I mean. Recently, there was recently in California, there was a worker who did this, jumped off actually in Monterey County, and, um, he was loading melons. The story I just said was, was actually true, and unfortunately he slipped and the trailer ran over him and he died. Right? So even at two miles an hour, when you have, you know, many tons of steel or crop or produce or what have you, you know, it, it’s dangerous. So. The main thing that we believe in an autonomy is always give an ag vehicle a brain. Whether that’s a human brain or a computer brain. Full stop.

Grayson Brulte: It’s that it goes back to the wizard of Oz. If I only had a brain.

Tim Bucher: Yes. Abso, Hey, I love it. Let’s, let’s use that song.

Grayson Brulte: it should be your, it should be your, your theme song. So you went from driverless to autonomous. No brain to to brain. Obviously you and I know that when you give the vehicle a brain. It becomes smarter. You, you know, sensors very well. We got into that on the last episode. A sensor could sense that there’s a human under the vehicle and stop it. To me that goes for CAL/OSHA mission, making it safer. Uh, staying on the original driver list, you’re going two miles an hour. Multi ton. Tractor, depending on, on your load. Was that to increase efficiency? Were the labor issues there at that time? Where as you, it’s been well documented, it’s very hard to get farm workers. Was it like that back then? 

Tim Bucher: I think it was, it was easier to get labor, but you’re talking about family farms. You don’t hire anyone, right? So I grew up on a farm where it was me, my brother, my dad, and we did 90% of the work ourselves. Right? , So, you know, I think now, nowadays, keep in mind that tractor technology has changed. So then, um, probably in the mid eighties, I mean, it wasn’t that long ago, tractors started to put seat switches in them. If you, uh, were on the seat, the engine would run any tractor you buy today, if you start the, the tractor and then get out of the seat, it kills the engine, right? Simple thing. So it’s trying to make sure that there’s a brain in the seat. If you, uh, take your foot off the hydrostatic pedal, you stop going forward. So you can’t even jump off of these tractors. But in the old days when you had these manual transmissions, you put it in first gear. And obviously the transmissions in tractors back then and today are, are geared very low for the torque ’cause that’s what you need in tractors. Right. So it all made sense back then, but it doesn’t make sense today. And that’s your point. And that’s, that’s my point. And that’s why I’ve actually been, you know, just so you know, and your, and your listeners know. Uh, in August of last year, Cal OSHA decided and, and got approved to have a, an advisory committee, and they selected, uh, representatives from, from labor, from technology, from OEMs, et cetera. And I was invited to be on the advisory committee, which I accepted. So you’re talking to somebody who’s on the advisory committee for Cal OSHA regarding autonomous agricultural vehicles. It’s, it’s why I can answer your questions, uh, with such a conviction. ’cause I, I know things inside and out and I attend all the board meetings and, and really support these regulators.

Grayson Brulte: If you look at it from the tractor manufacturer, I’ll use term they self policed or self-regulated. By putting those, those sensors in there, they’re doing what the regulation did. Since you, you, you, you sit on that advisory committee, you have insight that a lot of individuals don’t. NBC Bay Area recently did a very long piece on these regulations and unfortunately this was a public statement CAL/OSHA would not respond on video. They would not respond in writing. Are you starting to see, I use the word, the thawing or the, or the openness to up updating this regulation or striking it from the books? 

Tim Bucher: Absolutely. Um, and let me first of all, uh, talk about that NBC Bay area piece. If you watch the video, it was great, but if you read the article, they state in the article at the end that. By the way, if there’s no humans there, the memo from 2024, which has been, you know, approved in 2025, allows you to operate without people, uh, in the zone of danger. So, um, I wanna say something that you might think is strange, but I really sincerely mean this. The regulators are really smart, they’re really good people. They want to do the right thing, and it’s not a regulator kind of thing. It’s really the pressures that they get from the outside, you know, special interest groups and whatnot, that they have to thread a needle. Like it’s really difficult for them, and I’ve grown a sincere appreciation for all they do and how they do it. , So, you know, I don’t want anybody in your listener to think that, you know, Cal OSHA is evil. They are not. They’re actually really, really smart folks doing the right thing. And they have to balance that between, you know, all these special interest groups and make sure that, you know, this organization is okay with things and this organization is okay with things. ’cause ultimately, you know, we are a democracy and, and, you know, the, the, uh, voters can vote on these matters, right? So the fine that’s happening is number one, the memo that was a big thaw. Okay. Um, if you recall, uh, you know, there is a mechanism that CAL/OSHA had or still has called the temporary experimental variance, and you can apply for a temporary experimental variance. They come out and it’s it’s first site. It’s not by technology. It’s about the site that you’re working on and the technology together, and you can get approval to operate, you know, freely. And, uh, very few companies have applied for a tv. Only two companies in history have, and by the way, Agtonomy is one. Um, but we apply for it, uh, with our customers because our customers are the ones who have the sites. So, , but, but if you, if you don’t have people around, you really don’t need a temporary experimental variance, right? Because if, think about it this way. Cal, OSHA will cite you if you have a safety issue that injures or causes a death of a human. If there are no humans around, they cannot cite you. And the memo actually says exactly that and it states that not all, autonomous vehicles are the same, right? There are those that are collaborative with humans and there are those that are not. The latter group, it’s okay to operate because, you know, you’ll take out a, a citrus tree, right? And Cal OSHA doesn’t cite you for taking out a citrus tree. There’s no human injury involved in that . so, so that’s why, you know, when we talked at the very beginning about permanent crops, which is what we focus on, you have to have had, you had to have had better technology than what existed in the past. You know better than anyone that you know. The AI technologies we have and the compute that we have, and the sensors that we have just in the last five years has allowed us to navigate, you know, precisely through the crop and farm, precisely around the crop like we’ve never been able to do before in permanent crops. And then you take out the human equation and now things are safer for them, right? They can operate the vehicles from their air conditioned trucks, which most of our customers do in the Western United States. , So, you know, as far as changing the regulation, you know, that may take a much longer period of time, but there are ways to operate safely, legally prior to those regulation changes if you don’t have people around.

Grayson Brulte: Was your variance granted.

Tim Bucher: not yet. Takes, takes a while. Uh, we just applied for it this year. Um, ’cause we wanted to, you know, work with the regulators on, you know. How everything works, right? But in May, that memo, everybody agreed, was acceptable to operate without people around. So that’s why technically you don’t need a temporary experimental variance if you are in that scenario, right? If you have humans around, you need a temporary experimental variance. Um, but tomorrow I’m meeting with, I’m actually meeting with CalOSHA tomorrow at a customer site, and we’re going through all the safety mechanisms that are in there and, um. It’s part of the, the TEV, the temporary experimental variance process. So we’re very, very open, uh, with CAL/OSHA about, you know, all of this ’cause we’re trying to educate, uh, is, is really what it comes down to in the end.

Grayson Brulte: how is it defined? Is it, is it codified into a regulation with the human? Is it within 10 feet, eight feet? Is it, I dunno, football field away? Is there anything written to that regulation which defines 

Tim Bucher: yeah, good question. That’s, that’s probably the one gray zone. When you think of zone of danger, what does that mean? Right now, in our case, it’s, it can be, you know, a kilometer away, right? That’s typically kind of how far away the supervisor, the operator of the autonomous equipment sits. And, , and so, you know, I think that’s gonna be the next step as far as regulation change is tightening that definition up. You have to keep in mind though, it’s different for every type of ag too. So it’s, it’s a bit of a challenging problem. Right? My hope is, and I believe it will happen, that not just the kind of work we do will probably be the first that gets, you know, uh, modified in, in a bill that can then, you know, change the regulation. I think the collaborative robots is gonna take longer because, you know, how do you define zone of danger with a, you know, one ton vehicle right next to you? There’s gotta be, obviously safety bumpers everywhere, up and down, and kind of other, other mechanisms that they do have in place. But not all of those collaborative robots are surrounded by, you know, bumpers, right? They have buttons on them here and there, but it costs a lot of money to put all that stuff on. So, you know, I think, I think it’s gonna take time. Um, but the good news is, uh, for the state of California and for the growers in California, the good news is that you can operate if you’re doing the type of. Autonomous, um, ag equipment that does not require humans to be right there with the tractor as it’s doing its workload.

Grayson Brulte: if you look. California from a business perspective, EV, it’s well known. It’s well documented, very high regulations. And if you, another agency, nobody really cares for, ’cause you basically is getting line of weight as the D, the DMV. But I, I gotta give Bernard Soriano and the team at the California DMVA lot of credit. Yes, it’s a very strict regulations of what they. They put in place for autonomous vehicles. Yes. But then there’s also the California Public Utilities Commission so that the California V can only go so far. But I’ll give Mr. Soriano and a team a lot of credit. In the early days of autonomy, he was out there engaging, wanting to go for rides, wanting to understand the technology, wanting to feel it to, and holding open public listening sessions to understand he’s still doing it. To this day. Is Cal OSHA doing anything engaging with the the autonomous ag community? Very similar to Mr. Soriano did in the early days of the California DMV.

Tim Bucher: I think they’re doing even one thing better, which is they’ve invited the DMV to attend, uh, all of the meetings and describe how they did it to essentially model. Agriculture after the way the DMV did it, right? Because the DMV said, Hey, we need data, right. To see if it’s safer and all that other stuff. Well, we can’t get data unless we let them operate. So they gave these restricted permits to, you know, all the vehicle companies you know about, and that was kind of, that started the fly. Right. So now you can start to see data and, okay, it’s, it’s safe. Okay, we’ll open it up a little bit more and we’ll go to this part of San Francisco, right? Okay, that’s safe. Now we’ll go to the entire Bay area. Okay, that’s safe. Now we’ll go to la. So, you know, it’s this chicken and egg problem and the DMV did a great job both in allowing via, you know, strict permits or limited permits I should say, so that they could also get that data and. We’re, we’re doing the same thing in ag now, and I, you know, we have grower representation as well on this advisory committee. , And like I said, you have companies like Agtonomy who are openly willing to provide such data to Cal osha. Invite them into the fields and, you know, show them the safety mechanisms. , Literally we’re, we’re putting a mannequin out in the fields and showing how it works with humans without having humans there. Right. So, uh, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be fun and, and very educational. I think one of the things. That not all Cal osha, you know, uh, board members, uh, have experienced, are Waymo cars or things of that nature. I will tell you this, the chair Mr. Alioto, he has, and that’s a, he, he became the chair over the, over the last nine months or year. And he’s a very forward thinker and he understands that he lives in San Francisco. He sees the Waymo’s everywhere. And by the way, Grayson, they are everywhere. I mean, it’s like. The majority. You, you can’t see taxis anymore. It’s just Waymo’s everywhere. Even more than Ubers and Lyfts. Seriously. Um, there’s one part of San Francisco called Mission Bay. It’s like the epicenter of Waymo’s. Um, and, uh, it’s kind of neat to see them all operating, but I think you’ve got more forward thinking, uh, more, you know, experienced meaning they’ve experienced these other technologies in leadership positions, and I think that’s helping, uh, tremendously as well. So, as I said, the regulators are really smart. They’re really great people. They’re, they’re, they’re trying to do the right thing. They’re leveraging other models like the DMV, they’re talking to growers, they’re doing site visits. All the right things are happening, and that’s why I’m so bullish on this fine, as you called it, happening on these regulations still takes time. But in the meantime, we can operate and we can provide that data.

Grayson Brulte: That’s wonderful. ’cause if you look at the data, Swiss Swiss republished it, how much safer the Waymo vehicles can. Your traditional human driver and it’s, it’s all public data. If you look at the California Public Utilities Commission data, Waymo is operating very safely. They’re operating as a good partner. We’ll go back, I would say probably eight or nine years when Waymo had their, their trucking program when, and they had a partnership, very public partnership with JB Hunt, and so I said to the individual. I was working on the deals. His name’s Craig Harper. He since retired. He was their COO at that time. And I said, Mr. Harper, why did you pick Waymo? He is like, well, we went to Arizona. We went in the vehicle and it, it knocked, it knocked my socks off and that, and that helped to build trust and I’m gonna put on my dad hat, let’s go on a field trip. Do we get to a point where the cal OSHA board or the, or the representatives that that vote on this technology. Go to San Francisco and experience a Waymo, I’m gonna say, wait, this is really great technology. No, by the way, it’s operating in a completely more dangerous environment on the public roads of San Francisco than it is operating on the State’s Great farms.

Tim Bucher: I think that could happen one day, but I think. Not, but, and I think the first step though, is doing more demonstrations of autonomous agricultural equip equipment, because you have to understand, like you cited, right? It’s a different environment. It’s actually much safer, right? You can move instead of 30 miles an hour, you can move at two miles an hour, right? Instead of having traffic everywhere, you have no traffic. You have to, you know, show them the, the real environment. Now we have a, a, our next two day board meeting is in early August, and, uh, on the second day there’s a field trip where the entire board is going out to a real farm and seeing autonomous ag vehicles in action. So it’s happening and I’m, I’m just, I’m very grateful that these regulators are, and these special interest groups are open to seeing how it goes, right? Because. A lot of people think it’s, you know, taking jobs away and I mean, Grayson, we can’t hire anyone. One of our customers has, you know, 25 openings for tractor drivers and I can’t fill ’em . and you know, there’s been a lot of changes since we spoke last, you know, in terms of immigration policy and it’s, it’s a fact that in agriculture, you know, the majority of ag workers are undocumented and. They’re, they’re scared to show up to work these days, so the challenging labor situation we had has only gotten worse.

Grayson Brulte: you’re right. It’s, it’s, it’s getting worse. And at some point, continuous, there could be, I’m gonna use a a, a bold term. There could be a food shortage because if you don’t have the, the labor and that becomes an issue and then it starts to go into. An economic down downward spiral that nobody wants to go on, and special interests have been out front there, especially from on the labor side, you know, pushing for their, their, their labor issues. Then you have other special interests that have been hiding behind the, the safety argument because in 2022, Monarch Tractor formally petitioned cal OSHA to change the regulation. No surprise, the vote was four to three, and the reason was safety concerns. That I’m not saying, and I’m not alluding to, but that’s been a common talking point for certain special interest. Is that part of it? Thawing from the special interest standpoint, I said, wait a second, we, we’ve gotta do something here.

Tim Bucher: Well, if you look at who petitioned the hardest, uh, it was not an AG related entity. It was the construction union who are wonderful, by the way. And, you know, the construction, uh, union folks, they don’t always understand the economics of other industries. I’ll give you, I’ll give you an example. , If you or I were experts operating an excavator. We’ll easily make $50 an hour. If you or I are experts at driving a tractor in the farm, we’ll make 20, $25 an hour. The economics are different, so to pay, you know, to, to, to have the labor pressures you have in agriculture, they’re not as significant as in these other segments. But if those segments are afraid that if it happens in that segment, it’s gonna happen here. It’s, it’s a whole different ballgame. The automation capabilities in construction sites is very challenging, and I don’t think we’re ever gonna be able to fully automate that, right? Every job site changes on an hourly basis, and that’s just super difficult. So. I think there was just a, a misunderstanding, uh, I don’t know what maybe, uh, Monarch, you know, didn’t include some folks as they were trying to go through it. , We’re just being very open. I’m not saying we’re doing anything better than Monarch. I’m just saying we’re just trying to be educating what the reality is, how these things work, and the safety that you know is achieved that’s so much greater, to your point earlier than what a human driver can do. I mean, you, you, you’re operating equipment, you know, at, you know, looking forward. Operating equipment that’s behind you with maybe, you know, four actuators at the same time. Oh my God. And you’re trying to avoid within inches, you know, these very valuable plants. It is a stressful, stressful job. And if you, if the e economics of the agriculture industry can only afford $25 an hour, well, you know, your labor pool becomes very, very short. You know, I think I mentioned to you, I have three children and none of them are taking over to my farm. And that’s happening everywhere. You know, we, by the way, since the last time we spoke, the average age of a farmer in the United States has now crossed into 60, 60 average. There are, you know, there are, uh, men and women that are in their eighties farming, and, uh, you know, that doesn’t bode well to your point earlier about, you know, feeding the, the country or, or, you know, food prices. Right. ‘ cause if you’re losing, you know, the workforce on that front. And if you have some challenges on immigration on the other front, uh, you know, it’s a double whammy or a triple whammy.

Grayson Brulte: You, you have the immigration issue. You have the age issue. This is, this is starting to be a perfect storm where there has to be an off ramp, and that’s just basic economics 1 0 1. Uh, is there any, looking at the state level from, from a, an elected official standpoint or from the federal level, say, wait a second, we’re gonna have to do something to make sure that we’re not like uhoh, we don’t have enough food today, one day. Is there any movement at the state level in, in Sacramento or any movement at the federal level? 

Tim Bucher: There is movement at the state level. Um, yours truly, along with a couple of others, uh, met with the governor’s office on this topic, and they are, they realize that this is an issue because, you know, a big export of, uh, California is agriculture. Right. And, and so they’re very aware. They’re trying to work with, uh, you know, all the appropriate agencies to get this through. And again, it’s, it’s happening. It’s just gonna take a little bit longer. But in the meantime, you know, we can operate as long as there’s no humans around. We, we basically upskill those humans to now, instead of sitting on the vehicle getting vibrated, you know, like crazy or inhaling, you know, sprays or whatever, that even with organic sprays, you don’t wanna be, you know, sucking sulfur or car or copper or whatever the spray might contain. Those are organic, you know, sprays. So, you know, it, it’s, it’s definitely, uh, safer, but you’re also providing an upskilled opportunity. Which, by the way, all the operators that we’ve trained are loving it. ’cause they’re like, you know, I’ve been driving tractors for 25 years and I’m doing a new thing now. That’s really bringing me into the digital age. Uh, it’s, it’s really neat to see. So yeah, I think, I think it’s, I think, I think I haven’t seen anything at the federal level, but that would definitely accelerate things if we, if we did have that.

Grayson Brulte: Think about it from a mental health standpoint. You’re going from the, the vibrating seat in air to going to air conditioning when it gets very hot. But then from a, a mental health that I’m part of the future. So if you take an, an older individual, let’s just say 65, 66, I’m part of the future, they could talk to their grandkids about it. And this is potential because there is data from John Hopkins to back us up. It could increase their life expectancy because of the, the emotional wreckage or the uncertainty goes away and they’re like, then they’re all excited. Then that’s a, that’s a huge benefit right there.

Tim Bucher: Absolutely. I love that. I totally agree. Being, having personally experienced a lot of stress and, and physical abuse, you know, throughout my life, working on my, on my farms, you know, we, we are seeing states, uh, you mentioned Arizona, right? Arizona was a key leader in autonomous passenger vehicle and trucking. They’re also a leader in agriculture, so California’s the only state that has regulations like we’ve been discussing. All other states allow it to happen. But Arizona went even further. They said, we embrace this, you know, come to Arizona. By the way, I’m, I’m keynoting an event in Arizona that I’m pretty excited about. So, you know, I think California has to realize that if this doesn’t change, if this thawing doesn’t happen faster, and these regulators are really smart, really good people, we’re gonna continue to lose, you know, to other states. And, um, I mean, even my company, right? I just told you, we set up a big shop up in, uh, Eastern, Northeastern, uh, Washington, or Central Washington. And you know, I’m, I’m going up there, um, every month and, uh, we’ve got a growing set of customers up there. So, yeah, it’s happening. Um, we’d love to accelerate it more. We’d love to look at, you know, the DMV as a model. We’d love to look at Arizona as a model. We’d love to look at, you know, the federal, uh, government stepping in. Um, but in the meantime, uh, we’re, we’re making do with what we have. And it’s, it’s, it’s been great ’cause we can operate.

Grayson Brulte: It’s been great because you’re rolling your sleeves up and you’re getting involved and I’m gonna go back to cars and trucks ’cause there there’s a history. They’ll tell you so. This was, um, under Governor Ducey of Arizona when he did the executive order. Then it got passed in, uh, and signed into law, and then all suddenly you saw the companies relocate to the Phoenix Metro region, and then you saw under Governor Abbott in Texas for the autonomous trucks. So all the autonomous truck companies relocated to Texas. And you could see a very situation where called the autonomous ag companies relocate to Washington State or to Oregon, a, a more friendly environment. I look at this, if I’m a regulator. I put on my, take my regulator hat, hat off and put my economic, I want my kids to have jobs and have a bright future hat on, uh oh. That, that one line is, is causing negative economic damage, and, and California’s learned it over and over again. When does economics enter the picture? 

Tim Bucher: Great question. And I wanted to say that regulators’ jobs is not to think about the economic, the financial part of the equation. Uh, again, um, if, if I sound like a big fan of regulators, I am because they do their job really well and they’re really smart people, this is where the state needs to come in. And I’m starting to see that happen with the governor’s office. So. Um, that’s where, you know, the economics of the, you know, overall, you know, state are, are being looked at and, and, uh, they see what happened. Yeah. I, I went to Arizona last time I went to Arizona. I, I, I landed . and you know, I was just seeing these signs even in the airport that says, welcome to the world’s, uh, self-driving car. You know, the, the, the headquarters of self-driving cars. Welcome. Right. And, um, and you know, I don’t think we want to repeat that, right? California creates incredible technology, , and, uh, and the, the icebergs are, are t fine. So, uh, I’m, I’m extremely, extremely bullish and I’m. Thrilled to be working with the regulators with the special interest groups. Uh, it’s a personal thing for me just because, you know, I’ve grown up a farmer in California continue to farm in California. Plus I’m also trying to help bring technology in to, you know, help growers stay in business.

Grayson Brulte: You’re trying to do good. I could give you a lot of credit and I commend you for rolling up your sleeves and it’s a hard job. It’s a hard task. There’s a lot of thinking that goes involved and because this is not cliche, but the family of farmers play a significant role in the society, and I love to see a point where that farm could stay in that family for multiple, multiple generations. And as some families as. As you know, they, the kids don’t want to go into it. Well, they can automate it and keep it, and that, and that. There is a lot of, lot of value there and there’s a lot of farms in California. They ex, they export a large part of the, the fruits and vegetables. They export technology and hopefully they, they can come around to this.

Tim Bucher: yeah. And you said something earlier that, you know, we really need to highlight even more for your listeners. You know, you said, you know, the 65-year-old farmer is using technology and it’s about the future. That is attracting a younger workforce, right? The younger workforce doesn’t want to, you know, get vibrated to death and work in 120 degree Fahrenheit temperature and dirt and dust and whatnot. But, you know, playing video games and using their, you know, kind of responses on that and seeing how these things work and do real work, it’s like Farmville for real. That is attracting another generation of, of workforce and it’s why the OEMs realize this has to happen. I mean, again, think about it. If you have less and less skilled workers to operate equipment, there’s only one way for the OEMs to go, which is now. So that’s why they wanna bring this into the equipment. Um, it’s why the growers are embracing this ’cause they know it’s the only way out and it’s generating this, this interest from this new generation, which I’m super excited about. And, you know, we have the support of, of regulators really taking this seriously and, and, um, and, and, and learning a lot about it and, and helping to, you know, create those, the equivalent of what the DMV did in terms of these, you know, limited permits, right? These situations where you don’t have people around, okay, you can operate. I think, I think, you know, I think everyone’s being really smart about this and ultimately being safe about this too.

Grayson Brulte: Being safe. It’s, it’s going down the road track. If and when the CAL/OSHA regulations overturned, how are you gonna position Agtonomy for that growth? ‘Cause all suddenly to me putting on a economic out again, you’ve got a very, very big market market.

Tim Bucher: Let’s, let’s be honest, this is a massive market. You know, this is a, I mean, the global food supply is trillions of dollars. And, you know, without food the last time I checked, you know, we can’t survive as a global society. So, you know, the, the phones are definitely ringing off the hook more over the last few months. And as you said at the very beginning, we’re growing. We are growing. Uh, it’s a super exciting time. Uh, it is that perfect storm where automation needs to be accelerated even more in this industry. And I’m just thrilled to be part of it. I’m thrilled to be, you know, am I doing my part to help make it happen. In this state and in other states and in other countries. You know, another thing that’s happening in that autonomy is we’re expanding into other countries. So that’s happening while we speak. And uh, and so it’s not just the United States, it’s, it’s everywhere is realizing we have to bring this technology in. I mean, think about it, right? I think I even said this on, on the last time I was on, ’cause I always say this, so I said, you know, you and I would love to have, you know, fully self-driving cars, right? And that’s great. That’s a service of convenience. In agriculture, you know, having autonomous vehicles and you know, automation, it’s not a service of convenience. It’s a necessity, a service of necessity that we have to have, and we have to have it yesterday. So, you know, I. These, uh, environmental volatility events that we get. I mean, how many names have you learned about in just the last couple of years? I never knew what an atmospheric river was and a heat dome and all these other things that are happening, right? And people say, well, how does that affect, you know, labor? Well, like if you know this atmospheric river is coming in and you have to get, you know, this mowing job done in the next four days and you can’t hire anyone, you know, to spike that well. That’s the other thing that, uh, this kind of technology does. It really gives you so many more tools to work with so that you can navigate safely through these all kinds of things that mother nature or government, or anyone throws at you. And that’s ultimately what we’re trying to do at autonomy is help those growers.

Grayson Brulte: What you’re doing in autonomy is that you, you’re building the future. You’re creating economic resilience, you’re creating jobs, and the technology you’re creating is gonna allow the farm to stay in the family farm. And as you rightly said, we need more autonomy and more automation in agriculture because at some point we’re gonna go to a point of no return and we can never reach that point. ’cause then society will slow down when we don’t have food. The future is bright. The future is autonomous. The future is Agtonomy. Tim, as always, thank you so much for coming on the road to autonomy, and we’re not waiting seven months to have you back. Next time. We’re gonna have you back a lot sooner.

Tim Bucher: I always love talking to Grayson. Thanks for having me on today.

Key The Road to Autonomy Questions Answered