Transcript: Autonomy is Good for the Economy

Executive Summary

In this episode of The Road to Autonomy, Grayson Brulte sat down with Jim Mullen, the newly appointed Executive Director of the Council for Economic Resilience (CFER) and former acting FMCSA administrator. During the conversation Jim outlines the critical need for a federal framework for autonomous vehicles to ensure the United States remains a global leader, countering threats from China and overcoming state-level regulatory hurdles. 

Throughout the conversation, Grayson and Jim dismantle common misinformation about job losses, highlighting how automation will create a net positive number of new, high-paying jobs, lower inflation, and build a more resilient supply chain.

Key Topics & Timestamps

[00:00] Trump Administration’s Priorities and Shift to Automation

The administration’s initial focus was on tariffs and reducing fraud, but there are now signs of a shift toward automation policy. This is driven by the need for a national framework to prevent inconsistent state laws and address concerns about the technology’s impact on the labor force.

[02:00] Rule-making for Autonomous Trucks During the First Trump Term 

Jim Mullen recounts his time as acting FMCSA administrator, where his team initiated the three-step rule-making process for autonomous trucks. The effort was ultimately halted when the COVID-19 pandemic struck, causing a major shift in priorities across the entire administration.

[04:00] Overcoming Job Concerns and Misinformation 

A key hurdle is addressing White House concerns and public misinformation about job losses. Jim Mullen argues that there is a misunderstanding of automation’s impact, citing studies that show it will lead to a net-positive creation of new jobs.

[06:00] Autonomy’s Role in Supply Chain Resiliency 

The COVID-19 pandemic is used as a prime example of the supply chain’s lack of resiliency. Autonomous trucks could have provided a “tremendous help” during the crisis, and automation is presented as a vital defense against future disruptions, including the rising threat of cybersecurity attacks.

[08:00] Economic Benefits: Lowering Inflation and Expanding Markets 

Automation is positioned as a tool to lower inflation by reducing costs, which makes everyday goods more affordable for families. It can also double the daily transit range for fresh produce, expanding market access and improving nutrition for consumers in different regions.

[10:00] The Immense Safety Impact of Autonomous Vehicles 

Drawing from his experience as general counsel for a large trucking company, Jim Mullen emphasizes the profound safety benefits. He states that autonomous technology will drastically reduce the over 5,000 annual fatalities from heavy-duty truck accidents, eliminate costly “nuclear verdicts,” and ultimately save lives.

[15:00] The Competitive Threat from China’s Autonomous Initiatives

Grayson Brulte highlights China’s “new autonomous belt and road initiative,” as China exports its technology to Europe and the Caribbean. Both agree that without a U.S. national framework, America risks falling behind and allowing China to dominate the future of global logistics.

[18:00] Building Grassroots Support for a Federal Framework 

To counter the powerful narratives of special interest groups, there is a need to build grassroots support for automation. The strategy involves encouraging everyday supporters of the technology to voice their opinions to lawmakers, demonstrating that their constituents are in favor of it.

[21:00] Addressing the Truck Driver Shortage with Automation 

Jim Mullen explains that the U.S. faces a growing logistics crisis: freight demand is rising, while the truck driver population is aging and shrinking. Automation is presented as the essential technology needed to fill this capacity gap and prevent a future supply chain breakdown.

[24:00] Automation as a Platform for Job Creation and Economic Mobility 

The conversation reframes automation as a job creation platform, not a job killer. It will create new, high-paying technician and logistics jobs that provide economic mobility through apprentice programs, offering a path to success without the heavy burden of student debt.

[30:00] How Public Perception Will Shift with Wider Adoption 

Jim Mullen predicts that as the public begins to directly experience the benefits of automation—such as increased mobility for the elderly via robotaxis or lower costs from efficient ports—resistance will fade. This firsthand positive experience will lead to widespread acceptance and pride in the American-developed technology.

[36:00] How the White House Will Receive CFER’s Mission 

The mission of promoting automation is expected to be well-received by the White House, as it aligns directly with President Trump’s priorities of rebuilding American industry and creating good-paying jobs. Jim Mullen concludes that the U.S. has no choice but to lead on this technology or risk being left behind globally

Watch the Full Episode of The Road to Autonomy

Full Episode Transcript

Grayson Brulte: Jim, president Trump was sworn in 129 days ago for the second time. It’s made a lot of movement, a lot of noise on tariffs, a lot of positive economic developments, really good policies coming outta the White House. When do you think we potentially see the White House turn their attention to policies? That affect automation and autonomy, and especially a national framework. Now that Tesla’s announced they’re going driver route June 12th.

Jim Mullen: like all administrations when they, when they come into the White House, they have a list of priorities and, and he, he obviously campaigned on tariffs as a, as a top priority. So really no surprise that he spent a lot of time on that. Obviously the doge and, and reducing. Fraud, waste and abuse. That’s been a big priority. Um, so not, not a huge surprise that those have been the top priorities come outta the shoe. But, you know, you saw the announcement from Secretary Duffy a couple weeks ago about, um, uh, in the vehicle space, specifically the passenger vehicle space. So I do know, and when, when there are signs that the White House, uh, the administration is, is shifting, um, or providing more attention to automation, currently. There are concerns as everybody knows, um, with the labor force, with jobs, um, and I think there’s some misinformation out there, or a lack of understanding of what automation does to labor force, so, we’ll, I’m sure we’ll talk about that later. Um, and I, and I think the White House has some concerns about that, and there’ll have to be some education, uh, efforts that, that, that, uh, kind of set the record straight on some of those things. So, you know, I, they’re gonna get there, Grayson, and they’ve already shown signs of getting there um. I think that when you look around, uh, specifically in trucking space about some of the states doing what they’re doing and dropping bills that require human drivers in the truck, um, you know, I, I think that there’s, there’s certainly consensus that, that there needs to be a federal framework, uh, so that you can’t have these one-off states. And so I, I, I, I’m hopeful that we’ll get to that point. Uh, you know. Trump first administration, um, started the rule making on autonomous trucks and cars to begin with . the Biden administration did a little more work, but kind of back to square one. But, you know, the first administration started the process. So hopefully we’ll finish the process this time around.

Grayson Brulte: You were acting FMCSA administrator during Trump, first term, 45. What was the insight gathered during the first presidential term for President Trump as it relates to automation and autonomy? 

Jim Mullen: he was always very supportive of it. I would say probably more so on the passenger vehicle to the truck side . but like I said, we, we had started the rule making process at F-M-C-S-A, uh, relating to autonomous trucks. I. FCSA rulemaking is a three step process. You have a advanced notice of proposed rulemaking, then you have a notice of proposed rulemaking, then you, you, you publish the final rule. So we had started the first of those three steps, the advanced notice of, A-N-P-R-M, and had taken notice and comment on that and had finalized the next step, which is the notice proposed rulemaking, the NPRM. And then COVID hit . when COVID hit, that changed obviously priorities across the entire administration, including the DOT . and so we in part ran out of time, and in part because of the pandemic and all of the, the issues with. The driver force and the drivers being on the front line, making sure that we all got our, our goods, our food, our medical supplies. That I, I think that might have changed the appetite a little bit. I’m proceeding with, with a rule that might have some opposition from those folks. So, you know, we started it and, um, I, I believe the secretary and the deputy secretary at the DOT, are both supportive of, of, uh . uh, again, both passenger car and trucks. And I, I do believe that, um, we can overcome the concerns that the administration and the White House has as it relates to the jobs. I, I might, again, there’s, there’s lack of information or misinformation and misunderstanding. I mean, there, there’s studies out there as you know, Grayson, there there’s gonna be a net positive, uh, jobs creation created . by automation versus today’s, you know, uh, trucking industry. So we just need to be better at educating folks on the benefits of autonomy and jobs because of autonomy.

Grayson Brulte: Autonomy is good for the economy. Autonomy is gonna create jobs, and this week I’m, I’m super proud and I’m very thankful. That you accepted the board’s appointment to become the executive director of the Council for Economic Resilience. Thank you. And the board th thanks you as well. There’s a lot of misinformation. There’s a lot of boogeyman tactics, and we’re going to work to solve this. Talk about the positive benefits. I want to ask you, this is a hypo hypothetical situation because you had the experience. If you look back at COVID and let’s say, and you accelerated 20 years from now, autonomous trucks are running. Do you think that the public would’ve began to trust that technology? Some of this misinformation would’ve went away because those trucks would’ve been rolling 24 7. We wouldn’t have had the toilet paper lines that we had at Costco. We wouldn’t have everybody members at the, uh, my wife is Greek, so the, the, the Windex and, and the Clorox wipes and, and, and, and all of that stuff that could, that have helped if we had autonomous trucks.

Jim Mullen: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was, oh, without a doubt. And, uh, again, the, the, the position I was in when COVID hit,, I saw firsthand, I. it took to keep the supply chain moving. Right? And, and because you, you solve a, a pain point here and then there’s a pain point here. You solve that and it, it’s just, it’s called a chain for a reason. Right? Um, and so the, the automation of, and it’s not just trucking, right? Like and in ports, right? We saw up in ports, all these things. All these. Pain points that, that we’re slowing down the supply chain automation across the board would help that . autonomous trucking, a lot of folks, you know, I see it, I don’t believe it . it’s kind of a catch 22. And until you have fully tested it and, and society can see that it’s safer, that it’s more efficient, that it doesn’t. It doesn’t decrease jobs . but you gotta be able to, to get there, to, to prove it. Right. And so would, would definitely have been a tremendous help during COVID had we had, um, autonomous trucks. And, and you know, I’ve often said, and others say it as well, that if you’re a truck driver today, there’s no question a. If you’re a truck driver today and your son or daughter wants to be a truck driver, they’re actually gonna have an opportunity to do that. It’s just gonna be in a different application than, than, than than today . and, and when we talk about the benefits of, autonomy and automation, you mentioned COVID. I think that’s just a prime example of, of our lack of resiliency in our supply chain. And we ever gonna see another COVID? I don’t know. But, but cybersecurity threats are at an all time high. I mean, we all know that our, our, uh, our enemies are, are figuring out ways to shut down our supply chains, cybersecurity threats. I can’t even imagine the number that have been stopped. If, if we all knew the amount of cyber threats have been stopped. I think we’d all be, you know, terrified . and so we haven’t seen the last of, of. Threats to our supply chain. And if you have automation, that of course reduces the, the effects of those threats if they ever come to fruition.

Grayson Brulte: It reduces the threats and it reduces what I think is the most important aspect that’s not talked about and the, and hopefully we’ll talk a lot about here at CFER, is inflation. If you look at supply chain resiliency, you have that you lower inflation because if a mom can go to the grocery store and afford to buy milk and afford to buy eggs, that’s a game changer. Automation can do that for you.

Jim Mullen: Without a doubt and, and, um, will, will reduce costs. Stop inflation. But think about the opportunities and some of the, the markets, right? So produce, coming across the border or coming from, you know, Florida, you have automated trucks, expanded, you almost doubled your range in the day, right? That you can get the fresh produce from the south to the Midwest . think of all the opportunities, uh, for those, those stakeholders in those spaces. And then also think of, of just the. Nutrition and, and, uh, diet for those folks, they can get easier, cheaper access to fresh fruit produce, uh, vegetables than they can today. So when I was at the autonomous trucking development company, we, we did a, a kind of a pilot of what it took to get produce from Arizona uh, it was Arkansas, Oklahoma, I can’t remember which. And it was half the transit time. I was getting calls, we were getting calls from Australia, Europe about, wow, I mean, we could really, really use that, you know, here. So let’s talk more about, and it was watermelons. So what we thought was just, you know, hey, some watermelon runs and, and, and try to prove out how that could improve transit time of fresh produce. We’re getting calls from around the world, right? So it, it, it has tremendous benefits aside from just inflation, keeping inflation down, um, as it relates to the consumer goods . so yet the resiliency costs down, increase access to, to different products that we don’t have access today without having to pay more for it. Uh, and automation does all that for us.

Grayson Brulte: And well, if you look at what Secretary Kennedy’s trying to do with the pesticides in food, you’re limiting the pesticide. Because you’re allowing a child who might have had to eat pesticide food or processed food, the ability now to eat fresh food, which, which is healthy and ties into the whole Maha moment movement. Another thing that’s not talked about a lot with Aton, and we have a, with a board member, uh, that’s a surgeon, a doctor, and he talks about this was scary. The, the, the medical impact. Of autonomy. And you think about this from car crashes alone, heart attacks, seizures, strokes that happen in cars that unfortunately lead to all sorts of carnage with automation. That goes away. And if you, if you look at the impact that has on GDP, that’s pretty ginormous. It’s not just inflation, it’s a healthier society.

Jim Mullen: Yeah, it’s healthier. Um, and talking about the safety features of autonomy, um, you know, I was general counsel of a large trucking company. I was the general counsel, and I had responsibility for the, the claims and, and risk management and the safety departments. And I, I took the phone calls when bad accidents happen at the middle of the night. And, um, so I’ve seen firsthand what that looks like . and, and the safety technology on these trucks is gonna reduce those things. And then when you talk about, obviously, you know, we have over 5,000 accidents every year on the roads involving heavy duty trucks. This will absolutely help reduce that. But then we talk about the cost associated with those, those terrible axis. You talk about the nuclear verdicts, all those things just go away, Chris. All those things are tremendously reduced because of autonomy . and so it, it’s not like on the forefront of people’s minds when they think of, oh, cost savings, right? You talk about labor costs are cheaper, your efficiency’s greater, but talking about these other collateral issues. Risk mitigation. Risk litigation, uh, those costs go away as well.

Grayson Brulte: Most importantly, it keeps families together. You don’t have to make that heart wrenching. Call in the middle of the night to a family and say, I’m sorry, your father’s not coming home tonight. It’s probably the hardest call you ever had to make in your life. That goes away.

Jim Mullen: Goes away and, and, and, um, here, here’s. When the company I worked for was testing the autonomous trucks and, and actually did a handful of driver out runs, about 80 miles, on the interstate and in town. We worked very closely with the state highway patrol and if you’ve ever been around state highway patrol folks, pretty serious crew right? Um, never got a whole lot of warm and fuzzies from them as we’re talking with them. And they were very in tune. They had great questions and, and. Very cautious, as you might guess . after we did the first run, we had a debrief I, I always remember a trooper said to me, he was, you’re gonna save lives . is gonna save lives. This is gonna make our jobs easier. I, I’m a believer I wasn’t. I am now. And, and once people have the opportunity to actually see it up close. See the benefits, that’s when they become believers. And, and so what we need to do, talk about CFER, what CFER needs to do is we need to make sure that folks understand those benefits . you know, what, what, what Aurora’s doing, what Kodiak’s doing, as they continue to accumulate more and more, um, miles and, and applications. Folks will understand, uh, exactly all the benefits of this technology. And then you can also get some of the folks who, right. Rightfully so. You know, read an article the other day, Grayson, the truck driver, said that she had sensor problems on her truck because of rain. Right? Well, I’m not sure what truck she was in. I don’t know what type of sensor she had, but you and I both, everybody in this industry knows. That the high tech sensors sensor stack, right? Rain is not a problem. I’ve seen it. You’ve probably been on a truck in rain. We’ve seen it. It can handle rain, it can handle snow, it can handle those things. And the more and more data and, and, and real life experience where you, where it does handle those things and people get to understand that the of this technology. All that noise goes away. Right. Um, and I don’t really mean, I shouldn’t call it noise ’cause this is legitimate concern, but it’s also a little bit misinformed or misunderstanding of the, the, the, the level of technology, uh, that’s on these trucks. So, um, you know, that, that’s, that’s, you know, that’s my duty. That’s your duty. CFER’s duty to try to help. There’s other industry that are doing this. Um, right. But, but more the merrier. And so, I think that if we can get, if we can get the federal framework in place right, and so that we don’t have these squirmish on a state by state level, and you get the federal framework in place so that, that. The developers have some certainty that investors have some certainty . and you start to get greater penetration in the marketplace of autonomous trucks out there . people will, will, they’ll figure out that this is a game changer for not only the supply chain, but for our economy and for our country.

Grayson Brulte: It’s a game changer for for our economy. And America needs automation. America needs autonomy. America is built on resiliency. America always shows progress. America always leads. And I sit here as a US citizen watching what’s going on in New York with China now exporting autonomy. To the mainland of Europe. They’ve exported now looking into parts of the Caribbean through through BYD, and I’m calling initiative, China’s new autonomous belt and road initiative. And at some point if we don’t have a national framework, it’s going to come to America and that’s going to get really, really scary. If you read the public statements, you watch the video, secretary Duffy has posted on X Secretary Duffy, for the record, in my opinion, has done an absolutely fantastic job and recently last week. He visited Mr. Musk at Giga in Texas, and Mr. Duffy spoke openly about an autonomous vehicle framework and the threat that China is posed to the United States. He gets it. Does that help the momentum when Secretary Duffy meets with President Trump as, sir, look what’s happening? We have to act now for the sake of America, our economy, and all the societal benefits that come with this.

Jim Mullen: I think absolutely. Um, and I think if you look at just, you know, um, truck manufacturing, truck and car manufacturing and sales in general, you mentioned Europe. Um, the European truck market or auto market is in bad shape, right? China’s increasing their market share in Europe while the European automakers are losing market share in China. And you know that that will continue. If, if, if we don’t have policies in place that prevent that from happening. And if we don’t put a federal framework in place, then the the stuff up to the states and gonna get states popping up. And there have been great efforts in preventing any states from promulgating any legislation or or regulation to date, um, that requires a human and driver. But there’s plenty of states out there are trying. So we do need the feds to step up and I’ll, I’ll be honest, that’s a change of, well, when I first got into the industry in, in 2020, I, I, well, I wasn’t advocating for a federal framework at that point in time. Mostly because I didn’t think we needed one at that point in time. Candidly . you know, in 20 to 24, 20 20 to 2024, The folks making decisions could have screwed it up. So I was, I wasn’t advocating for a federal framework at that point in time, but I think the technology’s matured enough, that the, the, you know, we talk about the proliferation of autonomous trucks and cars. It’s, it’s sufficient now that it makes great sense to have it, and, and it’s needed . we, we don’t wanna be in a position where. China is controlling the autonomous movements of, of goods in the United States. I don’t know that it’ll ever happen, but, but that’s certainly not something we want. I can’t believe that Europe wants it. Um, you know, China’s been this long game, right? We all know it. They’ve been in this long game for years that they want to be the world’s super economy and, and automation and autonomy are, are critical to achieving that status and we can’t let them get ahead of us.

Grayson Brulte: No, we can’t. China wants to be the world leader dominant AI by 2030. They’re very public in those statements. On the state level, you’re right. I call it became a whack-a-mole. This state goes driver and bill. This state goes driver and bill, and the core says, oh, it only affects trucks. I. You and I both know you pass a driver and that affects trucks weighing over 10,000, one gross pounds. Eventually it’s going to go to vehicles. They’re not gonna stop there on the state level, how did he get the, the passenger side of autonomy and the truck side to come to autonomy to come together and say, look, we’re all in this together. This is gonna have a really positive economic benefit, and we’re all in this together.

Jim Mullen: I think the, the developers, they, they do, they try, think what, what. Is needed is we need some grassroots support for both of those things, right? And I think that’s something that CFER can add. I think we, to, um, do a better job of getting supporters uh, automation and autonomy, into the forefront. I, I, I think that there are some groups now that are controlling the narrative about whether it’s the job, the, the workforce, whether it’s the safety, certain special interest groups that are controlling that narrative Now. Um, predominantly, and, and if you can get the grassroots folks who are believers in these, these technologies that understand the benefits to get them to raise their hand, to, to use their voice tell their, their, their delegation and, and. And, um, DC tell their state legislators that, that, no, we are supportive of this. Then I think that the naysayers right, their, their volume starts to become overcome by the volume of, of the supporters. And it’s not just the developers themselves. We need the, those grassroots efforts. So people that the folks are making the decisions understand that their constituents actually in favor of this, and as you know, CFER is going to concentrate quite a bit on that type of activity. And until that’s accomplished, I, I think that we’re kind of stuck a little bit in neutral on getting, getting society approval and support for these technologies.

Grayson Brulte: Because if you look at it on road, off road, ma Maritime Society, for the most part does not have a understanding of the benefits of of automation and autonomy. Years ago before. I founded CFER was kicking around the idea to the autonomous trucking folks. So let’s do a grocery store day. Everything in this truck store is brought to you by an autonomous truck, and this is what the savings would be. And, and do it in Arkansas. Do it in Omaha, do it in Bakersfield, California and show the public this great idea, Gray. Now we, we, we, great idea, but we’re not gonna fund it. We don’t have an interest in that. That’s, it’s, it’s that, that’s just a gimmick. You, and I know it’s not a gimmick. Because the public, they can see the benefits. They can feel the benefits. That’s the thing. They have to feel and experience the technology and experience the benefits. And then all of a suddenly now the narrative starts to change in special interest that beat this very loud media drum and roll people out or spreading misinformation. And the problem is. I’m gonna sound like President Trump now. Fake news. Fake news, fake news. But the president does a really good job of calling, calling people out, and maybe that’s our job here at CFER is, is to call out the bull donkey dust that’s being spread about this technology.

Jim Mullen: Yeah. So, you know, trucks move, um, over 70% of the nation’s freight. Um, and by all accounts, it’s gonna continue to increase. And on the flip side is the, the demographics, the age demographics, so truck drivers is that it’s getting older and older. Every year, less and less young people want to get into the industry, which is a shame. It’s tremendous industry. And I be clear on that. I worked at a trucking company for 12 years . saw what these men and women that drive our trucks do, um, you know, gave awards to multimillion milers, um, great, great industry and great people. But if you look at the fact that the freight moving by trucks rising, but the demographics, we all know that the, the, capacities the supply of truck drivers is going down, is gonna continue to go down. That there’s gotta be something that helps cap those, those two. Changes in direction and automation is absolutely that. So at when I was, um, at, at the trucking company I worked for, had a, a driver appreciation night at, um, the local ball, the AAA ball team, baseball team. I got told, I’m gonna give the opening remarks to the fans. I said, Hey, look around. You got the bat, the bats, the balls, the beer, the hotdog, the hot dog, the popcorn, all that. Got here on a truck and literally you can see heads nodding, heads nodding. I mean, people just don’t really give that any thought. But then when you start talking about everything that they, they use on a daily basis came to them on a truck, that makes it real. And then when you talk about the fact that can make that product, you know, maybe not cheaper, but certainly no more expensive . automation and that they’re gonna get it when they want to get it. That’s when people are to understand the benefits of autonomy.

Grayson Brulte: Do you think a lot of this now is amplified because I’ll call it the Amazon effect. You order something, you want it with an hour, two hours the next day. I remember in the old days you get outta catalog, you wait two or three weeks. Is that, am Amazon amplifying that? ’cause if you look at Amazon warehouses, the majority of those are, are fully automated.

Jim Mullen: I, I think absolutely right. I mean, if, if we don’t do something to shore up our, our, our capacity, our supply chain, that you know that that’s no longer a reality. At some point in time, you know something’s gonna give on there. You can’t haul, continue to haul this same amount or even more freight. With less drivers. It doesn’t work. And, and so something’s gonna give, um, and that’s when people start to, to pay attention, right? In some areas, you know, shoot, you, you can order a toothbrush and a comb at eight in the morning. It’s at your doorstep by three in the afternoon in some cities, right? Um, if if we don’t have sufficient labor force to, to fill all those things, then that’s gonna change. And, and people are gonna understand that, oops, we got a problem now.

Grayson Brulte: We have a big, we have a big problem ’cause now society’s accustomed to it. And the other thing that’s not talked about, which we’re gonna do a lot of work together with CFER Automation and Autonomy is a job creation platform. It’s a platform where things could be built on. I want to do a lot of work in, in the inner cities. There’s a lot of these individuals, you, you go spend time in the inner city, they have dreams, they wanna be a pro sports athlete, a lot of them, football or basketball. And I did this thing with video games years ago. I said, you know what’s cool? You can own the video game company. You become a programmer. Really? I can own that. I said, yeah, you know, it’s even cooler. If you sell the company, you can own the franchise. How cool is that? And their eyes light up because think about you have the developers that build the autonomous driving platform. Then you could have this student that we, we go into an inner city, or we go into a community or vocational school, light bulb goes off, he builds a sensor stack or something that goes on top of it. Or he builds an optimization software platform. If we just changed that kid’s life, we changed his kid’s, kid’s life, we change his whole family. We change his neighborhood. That has a positive impact. That starts to have meaningful meaning, but yet some of these special interests, they try and stop it. Why.

Jim Mullen: You know, I don’t know. I suppose their jobs, and I, I don’t mean, mean their own jobs, right? I mean, so the labor union folks, you know, they have nice jobs and, and. You know, a boogeyman always helps protect those nice jobs from time to time. And so we just need to, to, to correct the narrative. It’s, it’s really kind of that simple. And the, studies, the data shows, and, and by the way, some of these au autonomous developers, they’re already working with community colleges, um, to develop the skillset to work in autonomy, um, on the. Speaking of driver shortage, there’s also a huge tech shortage in trucking today as well. So there’s tremendous opportunity, and we talked earlier about the fact that young folks don’t really want to be on the road, you know, 12 days out of 30 days in the month, which by the way, is on the, the short end for some, some jobs. And what better way, it, it’s, it’s low entry of, of low barrier entry, doesn’t take a, a four year college degree, so you’re not getting into debt. And you’re, you’re probably at age 19, 20, you have a very marketable skillset, making a nice wage. Um, and you get to go home every night and you get to, you know, raise your kids. You get to do all those things. Um, so I, I get the, I do get the concern about, you know, folks losing their jobs that they have today. But again, there, there’s no way all those jobs can be replaced by, by au autonomous trucks or, or even robo taxis today. And so, you know, I would say, hey, may, maybe if you’re open to advancements in technology and, and, and maybe you, um, are providing a service to your kids and your kids’ kids, if, if you’re not just a great big, hard no on some of these things, um, you’re gonna keep your job, you’re gonna have your job. But guess what? You’re gonna help provide greater opportunities for your kids and your kids’ kids. And, you know, I, I, I absolutely believe that to be true. If, if we can convince folks of that and take away some of the juice of autonomy and automation is gonna take over. Every job is mine today is yours tomorrow, watch out. That’s just a false narrative, and I do truly believe a lot of it is because the folks that are, you know, driving that narrative, they’re protecting a nice job.

Grayson Brulte: But they’re doing it to the detriment of society. And you brought up a very key point, and I’m gonna say public. Data on this student debt. It’s out of control. It’s an albatross around individuals. Next, there are countless individuals in their fifties that are still paying their college loans. College tuition is out pricing inflation over a hundred percent. Some schools are a hundred thousand dollars a year with with room and board. So you go to four year school, that’s 400,000 tech. Everything on, let’s call it your half a million dollars, by the time you pay it off, 600, 620 thousands an albatross are around your neck. What the industry is starting to do Waymo has done this apprentice programs come start. ’cause it’s, it’s a logistics industry. At the end of the day, and you know this very, very well from your experience, both on the traditional trucking side and the autonomous truck side, it’s logistics apprentice program. An individual can come, start an apprentice program, zero debt, make a high paying job, and then eventually walk out there as a millionaire. Because the example is Tesla has printed more factory worker millionaires. Than any company in history because of the stock options. But yet Elon is this boogieman, he’s the world’s greatest entrepreneur in our generation since we’ve been alive of what he’s built and what he is continuing to build. And he is printing millionaires. But you can’t say that, that, how do we get that message out to an, to amplify that? ’cause look at the financial freedom. Those individuals that worked in the Fremont plant or the individuals that work in the giga plant, look at all the financial. Freedom they have. No, I know for the record, they work hand in hand with robots.

Jim Mullen: it’s a matter of the folks that are, are getting the success, right? So they just go on their lives, right? They, they just, they live their lives. They don’t wanna run around telling everybody that they are, they, whatever, that this is what got them to where they’re today, whereas those who, who, are. Again, buying into the false narrative, right? That, that it’s gonna take my job. They’re the loudest. They’re the loudest. Um, and so you’re right, we, we have to do a better job of touting all the benefits. Economic and otherwise of automation. ’cause it’s, it surrounds us. You’re right. It absolutely surrounds us . if you look at the ports, right? I mean, I, I think I read something today. We’re like the least technological, technologically, technologically advanced automated system in the country. And the, the absolute delays and the increased costs because of the lack of automation, we’re lagging behind. Right? And that’s not good. Um, so we, we have to do better. We have to take the, the narrative over and, um, it’s gonna take some time, but it can be done.

Grayson Brulte: It will be done then. And you as executive director of CFER, you look at ports. If I, if I’m in a union official, I’m embracing automation as a job creation tool. ’cause you need, you need, you need to build these things there. There’s all, all these jobs, but you sit there, you put your head in the sand. You, you, yeah, you’re benefiting yourself, but you’re hurting society. So what we wanna do at CFER is put society first. Not necessarily put the, the, the, the personal interest first. You and I are doing this because we’d love this, and we believe in this. Waymo is scaling around the country. They’re announcing three new road trips this week. San Antonio, Houston, they just announced Boston. They’re operating in la They’re operating in San Francisco. They’re operating in Dallas. Coming soon, now Nashville are operating as Waymo does this rapid expansion, and when I say rapid, they’re not being reckless. They’re doing this right. Does that help to start to spin the narrative when individuals become, let’s call it pro, pro riders, where they’re using it every day because it’s part of their life, does that start to help spin this narrative and in the positive direction, eliminate a lot of these lies? 

Jim Mullen: Absolutely. And, and yes. And if, and if I can kind of come on that from a different angle. Um, as you know, I I, I’ve spent a lot of time in the, trucking space as it relates to battery electric, right. And. So when you look at, at, at where battery electric is today, and those are proponents of zero emission vehicles, whether it’s cars, whether it’s trucks, and the, and the truck space just isn’t feasible. The, the, the infrastructure’s not there. The technology’s not there. It costs too much. The range is reduced, the payload’s reduced all economically. It doesn’t pencil out, and it’s nowhere close to it. There have been a, some job creation because of that, right? And so you have now Republican states that are, have been the beneficiary of the, the Green New Deal. And, and as we know with President Trump, that’s, that’s, um, on the, on the block . the point of that is you have folks that benefited from the Green New Deal that otherwise don’t care for the policy, but once they start feeling the economic benefit of it . want it to come away from them. And so I think it could happen in the other direction. When, when folks start to see in their, their, their bank accounts, their pocketbooks, that this automation process, this autonomy transition is economically beneficial for them, they’ll get, I don’t, I don’t wanna use the word addicted ’cause that’s not the right word, but. They’ll become accustomed to it, they’ll know it, and they’ll be less, less resistant to transitioning to automation. And others will see that. And you’ll see, just like you do in, in the Green New Deal, you see stakes now combating, fighting to get, their, their piece of the pie. And so automation has absolutely the same, uh, and will be the same as we start to continue to, to increase automation across the industries.

Grayson Brulte: I’ll give you two examples of, of fights from history. Cell phones are gonna kill jobs. Oh, the, the individual that takes it and puts it in here and the rotary dollar, they’re all going away. No, you created the towers. The individuals with the, the fiber optics for every one job change, you probably created 10 new jobs in, in a variety of different fields. And oh, by the way, they are high paying. The other thing, remember the, the, the, the ATMs are gonna destroy the bank and they’re gonna destroy tellers. We have more tellers and more bank branches today in the United States than we did before ATMs. So the, the narratives are, are being dispelled. If you can’t get an at m it’s like, oh, whoa, whoa, what’s, what’s wrong? It’s a sense of pride. When do you feel that automation, autonomy starts to become a sense of pride? For the American public to say, we built this technology because, let’s not forget, this technology was incubated in DARPA defense, advanced research projects. The US government incubated this. They, they paid for this the same way they did the internet. The internet now has a sense of pride. Silicon Valley is the envy of the world. When does our growing automation, autonomy become the, the envy of the world in a sense of pride for every single American? 

Jim Mullen: we talked a lot about trucks so far, but, but even like in the, in the robot taxi, you, you have mobility folks with mobility issues and you know, they can’t drive, they can’t get around. But now robot and they’re absolutely able, they’re much more mobile than they used to be. And you, you, you see the stories, you hear the stories of people that, how robot taxis have changed their ability to get around and do the things they weren’t able to do before. So that will just continue to, to, to increase as Waymo and others in that space continue to. To, um, increase, uh, their locations. So you, you’ll see more and more of that and, and any time, which then brings pride, right? That we did, that we created the ability for that person to get around . and the same will be, I think, in the other spaces, right? Whether it’s in the ports, right? The, the, the, the ability to handle more and more capacity of containers coming in, which decreases costs, which, which makes availability greater. You’ll see more and more of that like, aha. Why were we so resistant? You’ll see it in the trucking space. Um, you already see it in the agricultural space. I’m from Nebraska. I mean, the automation in the, in the agricultural space today is, it’s those, those tractors pretty much drive themselves, right? And so that have experienced it get it right. And so we just need more folks to understand and experience it so that they get it. And as you said, as Waymo and others in other industries start to increase their presence, folks will start to understand this is a good thing.

Grayson Brulte: It’s a very good thing, and I’m a dad of a daughter. I would put my daughter in a self-driving vehicle today without a human, and she’s been in them since she’s been two, but I’d put in there by herself today. I won’t put her in an Uber. Or Lyft, you read these horror stories and of uh, you know, women being attacked by a driver. We read the gruesome story six months ago where a driver for an unnamed company, I won’t name it, it’s all in the public record though, sliced somebody up and cut ’em up into pieces. ’cause they didn’t leave a big enough tip on their food delivery. When you have a robot, those incidents go away. So there’s a lot of benefits there, and I think for, for women, it’s a lot safer. And they’re, and they’re not worried when they get home of having to go there. If you fall asleep in the Waymo, beep, beep, please wake up, man. Beep, beep. Please wake up. And maybe it’ll play a, a nice music phrase. There’s all these benefits as we highlight the benefits and we start this journey. Of CFER, how do you think the reaction will be from the White House, from Department of Transportation, secretary Duffy and saying, wait a second, this is really good for America, and here’s an organization that’s touting these benefits and not only touting, they have real data to back it up.

Jim Mullen: Yeah, it’ll be well received. I mean, there’s no doubt everybody knows. I mean, president Trump is absolutely focused, laser focused on. You know, rebuilding America industry, right? Creating more and more jobs in the us good paying jobs in the US and, and everything we’ve talked about now so far today absolutely. Is, is aligned with those policies, those, those priorities, again, whether it’s transportation, whether it’s the, it’s, um, agriculture doesn’t matter. Warehousing what we’re talking about absolutely is hand in glove with his strategies, his, his priorities. Um. What the sec, what Secretary Duffy’s doing over at the DOT the same is, is true, right? I mean, all the improvements they’re making at FAA, that they’ve been kicked down the, the road for years and years and years now. It takes things like what’s going on in, in Newark, uh, DCA and, and Duffy’s. Just hitting it head on and it’s costing a lot of money, but he’s like, well, okay, our options are, are really, really, really bad. And, and so Duffy’s hitting head on, and, and I think it’ll head, head on with, with, um, leadership team over there at DOT as it relates to, to automation, autonomy. I mean, in some ways we don’t have any choice, Grayson. We almost, we don’t have the choice, right? We, we can either do it or be left behind and not only left behind, but in some areas at risk, like risk of bodily harm. So, There’s some education that needs to be along the way that folks get, you know, understand that trying to put people, you know, out of their jobs, that, that we’re trying to be safer. We’re trying to be more efficient and resilient, um, across the board, not just financially, but you know, personal help. And, I, I, I really don’t understand actually, Grayson, how the opponents to, to, to automation. How, how they can really make the arguments they make. You know, with, with a straight face that no, we, we need to be just stuck where we are forever, right? I mean, don’t ever allow autonomous trucks to be on the roads. It’s just bad. It’s terrible when, when around the world it’s gonna happen, all right? This, it’s already happening . we just can’t afford to do that. And it just takes leadership to, to make sure that that doesn’t happen.

Grayson Brulte: Could you imagine? They tried to stop Edison and his team from inventing the light bulb where we, where we would be today. I mean, that’s a huge milestone. It’s just all these technological milestones they’re made here in America and we need to, I. Continue to let innovation thrive. ’cause innovation creates economies and we, we are gonna continue to advocate for high, high paying jobs, new high paying jobs, and economic resilience for every single member society. And the thing I wanna highlight about Secretary Duffy, I read today, he’s taking stuff head on. He said, okay, what’s the issue with with FAA in Newark Backhaul. So what does the secretary do? He rolls up his sleeves, he bites the bolt and says he authorizes a fiber pipe. Not just a fire pipe, a redundant fiber pipe. That’s leadership. And I’m so excited that’s what’s coming out of DOT because if you take the leadership of solving problems, you saw how fast the, the unfortunate incident at Reagan, he’s right there rolling his sleeve up and, and I can’t wait until the secretary’s plate and it’s a little bit clear. And he solves these FAA issues and he can turn his attention to autonomy. ’cause it’s going to create jobs. It’s gonna be good for the, the economy. We have the right leadership in place now, and Jim, we’re so, so thankful. That you accepted the position of Executive Director for the Council of Economic Resilience. So at the bottom of my heart, thank you very, very much. As we look to wrap this insightful conversation for today, what would you like our listeners and viewers to take away with them? 

Jim Mullen: Well, I, again, the, the advantages of of automation are, are widespread and I think we just need to be open to the change, right? The transition’s not gonna be easy. There’s gonna be some pain points. But the advantages are across the board. We talked about every, everybody will benefit from automation, whether it’s financially through cost, safety, um, and so need to tackle this together. Keep an open mind to the transition and uh, we’ll just keep after it.

Grayson Brulte: Yeah, we, we will. Autonomy is good for the economy. Time is gonna usher in what we call the autonomy economy. If you’re interested in learning more about the Council for Economic Resilience. We encourage you to visit CNFER.org. That’s CNFER.org. The future is bright. The future is autonomous. The future is the Council for Economic Resilience. Jim, thank you so much for coming on The Road to Autonomy today.

Jim Mullen: My pleasure, Grayson Excited to get working together for CFER.

Key The Road to Autonomy Questions Answered